GOTD - Todd Covert
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Speaker 2: [00:00:00] Welcome to Guardians of the Data. I'm your host, ward Balza. Each episode will explore the passions, expertise, and real world experiences of security leaders who are helping the future of data security and governance. Guardians of the data is made possible by support from Centro. To learn more about our AI powered data security platform, please visit sentra.io.

Let's dive in.

Ward: Welcome back to another episode of Guardians of the Data. My guest today has over 25 years of experience across the healthcare and insurance industries. He's a leader and speaker and serves on a couple of different boards. Former CISO in the finance and insurance industry, Todd Covert, welcome to the show

Todd Covert: Thank you, Ward. It's a pleasure to be here

Ward: You know, I was looking at this, Todd. We originally spoke about doing this almost a year ago. I think it was last October, and then we kicked the can, we kicked the can again, and here we are

Todd Covert: and yet, Ward, this is my first podcast. I wanted it to be with you. [00:01:00] So, you know,

Ward: Oh, okay.

Todd Covert: me a little, it took me a little bit to get here, but, you know, you're my, my first and best podcast ever

Ward: here it is, and many more to come after this, hopefully.

Todd Covert: Hopefully. It's a, it's a great space and looking forward to our conversation today

Ward: Love it. Love it. Well, Todd, in your professional opinion, what's the biggest data security challenge that organizations are facing?

Todd Covert: Y- yeah, it's a great question, Ward, and I, and I was thinking about that from a couple of different angles in that space. I think o- one is it's difficult for people, just everyday users, everyday, you know, your, your business personnel, your finance team, your HR team, um, as they're trying to understand what are some of those guardrails that they need to follow, um, a- and how do they best serve your customers, your external customers in that space.

I think most people are trying to do the best they can to help your, [00:02:00] help their customers. Um, from a couple of decades in this space, most times it's people trying to do what they need to, and either IT or security hasn't given them that path that they can do it in a secure manner. And so they end up trying to do the best they can to meet the obligations and requirements, uh, in that space.

So that's really one of the challenges, and I think too, a- a- along with that, is that people don't necessarily understand the sensitivity of the data at a point in time as well, right? So having worked with, um, partners in, in legal for many years now, um, a document may be highly classified today, in public tomorrow, or vice versa.

Working with my friends in corporate communications, corporate relations, so there's challenges there. You know, if you have a, a press release that you don't want anybody to know about on Tuesday, but on [00:03:00] Friday you want the entire world to know, um, it's challenging in that space. So it, it's difficult in that space, and then now as we add in that AI component where we've made it so easy

Mm-hmm.

To do, um, to leverage AI, whether you're using Copilot in your company, you're using Claude, any number of tools, uh, in that space make it so easy with the data, um, to potentially put it at risk.

Years ago, right, maybe four years ago before AI really took off, um, it wasn't as easy. But today, if I've got a spreadsheet with some data, um, you know, people are looking to how do I leverage AI, and they're being pushed both from a, a mass media perspective of leveraging AI, and depending on your company, that may be one of the focal points from your management to do that, and do so in a secure way.

Um, so [00:04:00] people are, are leveraging AI, and sometimes we don't always understand the consequences of that. So it's really coming down, I think, to how do we ensure that the right guardrails are there for our people to do what they need to in their job roles, understanding their changing and evolving needs?

And along with AI, how do we help make that a secure environment, uh, in order to, to leverage that data? Um, as we've seen from a, a few of the AI providers, there may... There have been a few cases where the AI got out of the sandbox,

Unintentionally

Ward: Supposedly, at least

Todd Covert: supposedly unintentionally, um, in that space, but it's, to me, it's quite concerning as a CISO if that was completely unintentional that that could happen, and the AI takes on that persona.

Um, I, I like to think of it as a, a five-year-old. If I asked a five-year-old to [00:05:00] go and get me something that maybe I shouldn't have early in the morning or late at night, it wants to make me happy. It wants to do a good job. Um, and it doesn't necessarily have that moral compass developed that says, "I probably shouldn't do this," um, you know, at this time.

So a- and that's where I-- some of the AI is at, where it's going out and fulfilling the initial request and doing it in a way that you and I would not, um, expect that to happen. If we ask one of our team members to, let's say that they were gonna do a data analysis for us, we would not expect them to break into one of our competitors, grab the data, come back, and put it into a spreadsheet or a PowerPoint or analysis or whatever and share with us.

Um, we'd be horrified in that space, and that's kinda what we're seeing from AI and, um, you know, so I think that's the, the next level. But as it comes to in organizations today, it's really about how do we make it easy [00:06:00] for people to do the right thing and help them in that space, 'cause like I said, I, I, I do believe people wanna do the right thing when it comes to helping our customers and, and using the data in the right way.

Nobody wants to have their name in the headline

Ward: Yeah, I completely agree with that, and that's... I mean, I remember work- you and I working together once upon a time on, on some of these initiatives, and that was something you and I always believed together that, you know, most, uh, you know, probably 99 point, you know, X nine's after, uh, most users don't wake up in the morning and say, "Hey, how can I exfil data or how can I get data out?

How can I be bad today?" You know, certainly there are malicious insiders, right? That'll happen. Insider risk is a real thing. But users aren't trying to do that. Truly, most users are trying to do their job or at least their job in a way that they think is the way it's supposed to be done. so it is interesting, shouldn't be surprised that one of your points was the guardrails based on, you know, our, our time [00:07:00] working together.

Um, I like that. I like that, and, and I see that playing very closely to your other two items, which was the temporal nature of, of sensitivity, right? Uh, sensitive today, not tomorrow. And then ob- obviously, you know, you, you hit it. You went there, right? You brought AI and copilots in the mix. Ki- kind of the same thing, right?

You know, understanding guardrails. So I think a lot of it goes back. Um, based on your experience, 'cause everything you brought up, with the exception of AI and copilots, that's not new, right? That's been around as long as you and I have been around for, in our careers. You know, you, you a little bit longer than me. Um,

Todd Covert: a smidge, that's all

Ward: are we still talking about it, r- right? Why are we still ta- why haven't people figured this out?

Todd Covert: I think part of it is, is the hard part because of human nature and, um, the educational aspect, and I think some of the [00:08:00] pressures, right? And, and as I think about it, if I'm, call it an attorney, maybe I'm in the-- in an insurance space as a claims person, and I'm really trying to help my customer, um, I'm trying to do the best that I can in that space, or as, um, from an HR perspective, trying to share appropriate levels of information.

Um, so it's really hard for people, and I don't think we've automated the tools in a way that make it so easy that I can understand it. Uh, even when you look at, uh, data classification, right, automatic data classification, um, it's gotten better. It's far from perfect. It's definitely a space where, um, most vendors that I've looked at in the space currently are trying to leverage some form of auto-tagging to help out in that space.

Some of it can be very challenging in doing it and time-consuming, and depending on who you speak to, there, there may be [00:09:00] supporters, um, or people against the data tagging 'cause it may put you in another, uh, potentially sensitive position, um, you know, if you've tagged the data and somehow it left the organization, uh, in that space.

So it's, it-- I, I think that's part of it as well as, um, people are just even busier today. Like, I don't know about you, Ward, but my inbox is probably a two hundred email inbound kind of a day thing. Um, and then you add in Teams or a Slack or a Zoom and a, you know, um, maybe you've got an SMS going on, right?

Some texting going on, whatever it is, and, uh, there's so much coming in and so much demand, and it's challenging for people to be able to slow down enough to be able to, to have to think through some of that challenge. So I think we're,

Mm-hmm.

Um, we're exasperating parts of the issue by the increased speed and expectations.

I call them [00:10:00] distractions as well. Um, one of the things for me this year is I went away from an Apple Watch and just went to a digital watch, Oh-ho. Taking it old school

Taking it old school because I felt like Pavlov's dog after a while because my watch would ding with a Teams announcement, my phone would go off with a text message, my computer, um, you know, it was, it was just so much noise in the system.

Then I tried to go back to a little bit of old school. So now I'm becoming more into watches, which is its own addiction. Highly recommend it if you can, uh, or stay away if, if you're probably better off. But, you know, from that, um, just distraction and the pressure that we have to deliver and get back to people in such a timely manner, I think that makes things challenges too.

And there's an expectation from people that their corporation has put in these guardrails, if you would, to help them in that space. [00:11:00] Maybe that's true, maybe that's not. Um, and I know you know this space, uh, as well as anybody, you know, in terms of how far we're coming, but we just haven't quite solved it yet.

And maybe that's one of those next leaps where, um, improving in AI will help us, but that, that time-based criticality of information, still haven't quite figured out how we work through that. So the press release is secret today. You know, think about M&A activity, think about new product release, whatever it might be for any corporation.

It's private today, and if it got out early, that could be extremely bad, right? You think about, um, you know, if Acme wanted to go buy whatever company, that could be extremely bad in that space if it got out too early. So how do you even tag that from an AI perspective? Do you set a timer? Is that automatic?

I'm not sure, Ward, but, uh, if you've got the solution on that, I would love to hear it because that's one [00:12:00] of those problems I have yet to solve

Ward: te- temp- temporal... I, I, I call it temporal

Todd Covert: Yeah

Ward: Uh, I, I don't know if I coined it. I don't know if it's out there. I'm sure one of my listeners can correct me, you know, maybe on that. But, uh, you know, that, that's a real issue that a lot of organizations are grappling with, and I think you hit a variety of the use cases there, right?

It's, um, you know, press releases, it's M&A, it's, um, investment strategies even. Um, you know, things that, um, to, to your point, um, maybe there's a reason why it's secret today before it's public tomorrow, and maybe if it does go out early, it's either gonna look bad or someone's gonna swoop in and buy that company,

Right

that product.

Well, whatever. Whatever it ends up, uh, being for, for sure. For sure.

Todd Covert: Yeah. I mean, you could even have the financial impact to your company, right? So let's say if you were going to buy company-- I always, I always like Acme 'cause it was, uh, you know, going back to the old days of Wile E. Coyotes, uh, the, [00:13:00] the famous, famous purchasing, uh, company. You know, if you go back to Acme, and they're going to buy company A that gets out early, another company puts in a bid, then that raises their potential cost of acquisition, and you may be talking millions of dollars or more, depending on the size of the company, right?

And that's maybe on the large scale, but there's definitely in that temporal space, um, uh, where you, you need to be sensitive. So that's definitely one of the challenges that we have, and just the, um, if I send it, is the information ,... You know, if I send my own personal information, it's not necessarily sensitive per se, right?

Because I sent it. So if I send it to you like, "Hi Ward, by the way, X," great. But if you're my doc- you know, my doctor, my healthcare provider, my hospital, and you share that same information, "Oh, by the way, did you know that Todd X?" Well, there's a, there's a bad situation in the headline, right? Hospital, you know, [00:14:00] releases, um, sensitive PI, PII information, EPHI, whatever it might be, right?

Depending on the case, and now we're having a really bad day. So it also depends not just the data itself, but on who and the intent and how that's being leveraged. So, um, it's definitely a tricky situation, and I think that's why it's -- we in the security profession have struggled for so many years to be a-- to nail that down just because of the complexity.

Um, if it was super straightforward and simple, we definitely would've been able to do it by now. So

Ward: it'd be

right?

Right?

Can

two decades ago at this point.

Todd Covert: It's amazing what we can do from a technology perspective if you look, you know, where, um, you know, where we've been just over the last several years and how far we've come and, uh, and what we're doing.

You can look at it from a hardware or software perspective, um, and just kind of the market and how that's going, and it's amazing some of the products today. Um, I [00:15:00] had the opportunity to, um, mentor, uh, a company that was working on, um, deep fake identification, and just watching them. It was some really smart PhDs, so I always enjoy when I'm, uh, learning as I'm helping at the same time, and just watching, um, these, these super smart people, but then also providing the context of what are the problems that I'm seeing on a regular basis that they can help with.

And it's, uh, it's just amazing what some of the things that, uh, we can do from a technology perspective. And as you watch some of the cycles, um, they're becoming smaller and smaller in terms of the time before release in that space. Who knows? Maybe by the end of this year, Ward will be like, "And the silver bullet is X."

Ward: Is blah, whatever it is.

Todd Covert: I'm sure it will come in the form of, uh, you know, a, a smaller company who's, who's got the-- who's nimble and able to go [00:16:00] after it. And, um, you know, that there's so many great companies out there, and I've had the opportunity over the years to work with startups all over the world, you know, just in that space and what they're trying to do, and just the, the focus that they bring to it and just the intelligence.

So I'm hoping, Ward, you know, we come back next year and have this podcast and you're like, "Hey, we've solved that problem. What about world hunger? H- let's talk about that." So that's what I'm hoping. Um, um, but it's definitely gonna be a, uh, a challenge to get there

Ward: Well, we're making a lot of references here to technology, right? Which o- obviously, right, we're in a highly technical space being, being in security, being in technology. Uh, a lot of technological issues, you know, AI, classification. One could argue that's not really a technological issue. But, um, as, as you know, right, uh, the, the, the typical thing we all say is people, process, and technology, right?

Got, gotta have that, that trifecta to actually be [00:17:00] successful. So kinda, kinda going back to what you said, guardrails and understanding. So, you know, I look at that, you know, there's the technical side to it, obviously, which if we haven't been successful yet, maybe the technology's the, the gap. But to your point, maybe it's gonna get there finally with, uh, with these agile, uh, startups and whatnot solving problems. But how about process? Um, you know, I know I've dealt with these problems for many years, right? Thinking I, I, I built this great process, and then you get it to the business and survey says nope, right? They either don't wanna do it 'cause it adds a click or two, or it's too difficult to understand. Um, i- is that your experience where, like, the best processes from a security side aren't always adopted, you know, well by the business?

Todd Covert: I think there are definitely challenges. What I thought, and I've had it in the past, uh, I call them learning opportunities, call them failures, whatever you want. Um, same thing where I thought the [00:18:00] process was rock solid and gonna be well-adopted, right? And it'd be like a rock concert where everyone's cheering for it.

Turns out, um, it didn't fit all the scenarios, or I didn't have the right people supporting it, right? And, and I've found over the years, if I can take my toughest critics and turn them into advocates, that's where I can have that success. Um, because otherwise those people will continue to be those tough, loud critics.

And so you normally, as that, as I think of it like the bell curve spread, you know, you're l- high in the middle and low on the ends, and your ends are the, the a- the early adopters and those champions for you, and then you also have the people who are against change. Some people just don't like change in general.

Sometimes the change isn't the best for them because you've added two clicks or made them have to think an extra, um, few moments to work [00:19:00] through it. So if we can, a- at least for me, when I've been able to change or at least be able to get some of those detractors onto my side, it's, it's definitely more successful.

Um, but to your point, um, there have been times when I thought it was a great process, and I don't think I had all the key stakeholders in the session. Um, and, uh, one of my mentors, um, was reinforcing that with me just recently of, you know, as you're taking this in, do you have the right voices in the room?

And if you take a look around, you know, and you s- find that you don't have the right voices, you need to go out and get them because those people won't be banging on your door to give you their opinion most of the time. Um, and you need to, to put in the groundwork. And I think what, that's what great leaders do is they, they connect people, and they encourage that collaboration, right?

So I can bring-- I can invite people, I can try to bring them in. [00:20:00] They can choose not to participate, um, and that's totally their call. Um, totally respect that. Um, but I, I think as one of our, as the leaders in our organization, we need to make sure that we're trying to build those bridges and bring those people into those conversations.

And just realize you're gonna bring some people in kicking and screaming, along the way,

Nope

that's gonna be okay.

Ward: Todd, I, I'm sure I have a few listeners that are a little bit more junior in their careers or, or starting to get into leadership and kind of build things out. I, I'm curious your thoughts here. So to your point, you're gonna get, uh, you need to bring folks in, right? You need to build a, that, that net- network, um, governance committee, whatever, right?

Whatever it is. But you're gonna have to convince some folks, and I think for some security individuals, they wanna be that introvert, right? They don't wanna actually talk to people. They wanna talk to their Copilot or their Claude, ChatGPT, whatever. [00:21:00] So any tips for, uh, for folks out there that, um, maybe aren't good at this yet, but do need to actually convince folks to partner?

Todd Covert: Yeah, I'll give you some uncomfortable tips. Um, so, um, early in my career, um, much more introverted, um, I ended up, uh, I married a salesperson who was an extrovert, and so we had the yin and yang of introvert and extrovert. And she's helped me over the years, um, by prodding or whatever forms of, uh, encouragement that I needed.

Um, but what I found, I, um, uh, earlier, I think, uh, 2009, I went back and picked up my MBA. Uh, went back to school to get an MBA, and the classes that I found were the most helpful, um, in this space are marketing and communication. And the reason I say that is when I think about, like, my [00:22:00] stakeholders, I try to put myself in their, in their shoes and try to understand what it is that helps in that discussion.

So if I was working with you, Ward, it would probably be a very data-driven conversation. We've got 86% of this. We've got three X on this space, and we could work through the numbers and be able to get there. Um, I've got some leaders who are driven by more, uh, from an emotional perspective. So how do I pull them in in that space?

Um, and so that's why I think about, like, a marketing... For me, it was the marketing and communication 'cause it forced me out of that introvert space and into the, okay, um, leveraging my emotional intelligence or EQ. What is it that people need in order to help push them, right? It's like different options help motivate different people, so I need to understand that.

And then what's their [00:23:00] style? So, like, if I was working with me, I would probably have a face-to-face. If you sent me an email, it's one of 200 that I get for the day, so probably, you know, that may not be the right mechanism, um, for an immediate. So what is that communication style that I need to work with Todd on?

Okay, hey, if he's a face-to-face kinda guy, "Hey, do you wanna go grab a coffee?" Like, I think about it in terms of you can also leverage it for your own career, right? Who are those people from a stakeholder perspective who have an influence, positive or negative? I'm sure you and I have both been in a situation that we may not have known where somebody, uh, you know, from a review perspective, and somebody provided feedback that we didn't even know was a stakeholder in that conversation So that's what I like to think about for those introverts who are working through it.

Um, there's a variety of styles. There's a number of materials, um, that you can get, and I was... Uh, m- [00:24:00] maybe I get in trouble or you can always blur me out later. This is an old, old book, um, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Um, it's by Dale Carnegie. It's probably older than, um, anybody who's looking for that advice, if you would, in this space.

But it's a great book in terms of, um, that influence for people, right? Understanding and what are some of those tips and tricks. So those are s- just some recommendations that I would have. You know, push yourself out. You could use, um... There's so many tools today to get a marketing sort of background or marketing course, or take that at either your local college, community college, online, watch a YouTube, 10 million different podcasts, whatever it may be, um, you know, in that space.

But really help you think about different ways, um, to bring those people in and try to convert them into your supporters instead of, um, your [00:25:00] biggest obstacles

Ward: Well, and it's also interesting, um, you know, the marketing angle's an interesting one. Actually, it's, it's a topic that has not come up, at least in that verbiage yet in, in one of these, uh, one of these episodes. But, uh, it, it's interesting, right? Because when it comes to, um, you know, to, to your point, people understanding guardrails, understanding why, understanding data sensitivity, you could be, you know, "Hey, here's why," be very blunt, be very corporate about it, or you can actually build out your marketing materials, air quotes around that, to actually make it resonate for them, their business line or, or whatever.

So I think that's a great tip for, um, our listeners is take a marketing approach, not just market your initiative, but market to your user groups and hopefully, not everybody, right? It won't be 100%, but hopefully a greater percentage of the masses will listen and understand at that point.

Todd Covert: [00:26:00] Yeah. And you can think about your different groups, right? If I think about like an engineering team, they're gonna be more into, um, the specifications, the details, typically more, more data-driven. If I think about my finance team, they care about the cost. What does it cost to implement a program? What does it cost for the training?

What would it be if we had an incident? How much would that cost, right? So I think about that different audience, and then you can think about your executive leadership. What would a reputational impact be to your company? And it could be time-sensitive, right? If I was gonna go to market with a new product, that could have an impact.

Or if I, um, you know, was going to make a, a publication, whatever that might be, um, what would that impact be if I had, uh, a- an incident, um, that I needed to report? So think about your audience, um, and then how can you leverage that in the best way to, to [00:27:00] understand where they're coming from and how to help them see where you're trying to, to trying to take them.

So it can definitely work. Um, it's not 100% effective, Ward. I continue to try to polish on it, uh, and make it better. And sometimes I think somebody's one way and then maybe they're another way, or I think somebody's, you know, a really emotional leader, and it turns out they are a hard data-driven, uh, individual.

So maybe not perfect, but I've definitely found that leveraging multiple ways to try to address the human element has been more effective than, "You just gotta trust me. I know what I'm talking about in this space. Believe me, this is the best Gizmo, gadget, whatever, and it'll solve all our problems. So if you can take that approach and, uh, try not to take it personally when people don't believe you just because you've got the right data set.

Um, there's lots of different factors, and people are [00:28:00] on different points in their journey, if you would, of hopefully coming around to, uh, the approach that you're trying to, to, um, to sell, if you would. I always think about that aspect as well, like as a security professional, um, we're trying to sell, if you would, in that space, and I don't think always the younger, uh, somebody less experienced, if you would, thinks about it in the selling.

I think about it from a selling perspective. If you're coming to me as CFO, lots of people are coming to me as CFO, right? Everybody wants some money. If you just give me money, I'll solve all our problems, right? Um, I've never met anybody going to the CFO who didn't think they had the right solution, and they just in that space.

So you're competing against other projects. Are you competing against, uh, something that will enable the business to increase sales by 10% or, um, you'll reduce expenses by X percent in the company? So you're fighting with all these other groups, with the CFO and the [00:29:00] CEO for that opportunity to bring that cost in and that project and that people process.

So just to think about that as well as, um, as I've seen some really great salespeople. By the end of the pitch, man, I didn't know that I needed ice in Alaska during a snowstorm, but I am gonna go buy some. so it's in that space.

Ward: need some right now.

Todd Covert: That's right. I didn't know that I needed it, but I really do now, and then help me understand that, right?

So I can and work through it. And so I think those will help some people who are working through this, um, in that space, and especially if there's somebody within your organization or there are many other, um, professional organizations where you can, uh, obtain a mentor. That might be another path as well in this space.

I'm, uh, I'm big on mentoring and being a mentee, and I think you learn something from both, um, you know, as in that role. I've always learned something from [00:30:00] whova-whoever I mentored, um, and had some great mentors along the way. So, uh, I'm sure like yourself, Ward, you like to give back to people coming up, and this podcast is one way to be able to do that, uh, and help those, um, people who may-maybe don't have quite as many scars, um, uh, in that space, but certainly ways to be able to help, um, some of your listeners, um, evolve quickly, um, either getting feedback, uh, or just hearing some stories from people who have gone through it already

Ward: I like it. I like it. And you mentioned coming up, so let's, let's talk about that, Todd. I mean, you, you've been in the industry for a while now. Um, what was your journey? How, how did you start, and how did you get to where you are today?

Todd Covert: Yeah, I started, uh, a long time ago. Um, I was actually gonna become a teacher. Um, I was gonna become a math and computer science teacher. Um, so I, I picked up my master's in teaching. I was like, "I'm gonna go [00:31:00] do this." And then I realized, um, the pay is not great, and they don't get to play with the coolest toys.

Um, so, uh, so I went down, uh, went down the path in terms of, um, getting into an IT space, doing all sorts of things in my earlier years, whether it was, uh, desktop support, uh, server administration, identity and access management. Um, I was one of those people, if there was ever something new and they needed a volunteer, even if you weren't gonna get paid for it extra, I was like, "I'm in."

Like, "Whatever you need, I'm in." Right? You want somebody to... You know, I took, uh, extra, extra time, if you would, um, helping rack and stack servers. I wasn't even on the team. But when the position opened up for server team, they're like, "Oh, Todd's always around. Is he on the team?" They're like, "No, but he should be."

Right? And it was that kind of approach. Um, and then just getting into, to various areas. And I think [00:32:00] also part of it for me, so moving into security, and at the time it was firewalls and antivirus were security, and that's all you really needed. Uh, turns out there was a couple extra things that would've been helpful.

Um, but just going through that and then taking on different opportunities. And I think sometimes people get concerned when they see a job description, um, that they n- they don't match it 100%. Um, and in today's job descriptions, it's very difficult to match 100%. I've seen some job descriptions,

Ward: Yeah

Todd Covert: and I don't know people who could match that and at the salary that are, that are proposed along with it.

So if you've got the opportunity, take it. If you're not prepared for it, definitely try it anyways Um, because at the end of the day, you'll be better for it. Uh, and I've worked with some really challenging leaders, and they've made me better. Um, I was definitely better when I came out at the end of it versus in the beginning.

Um, but [00:33:00] yeah. So I've, I've had the opportunity and continue to move around, and I think also for me, one of the things is that I worked at companies that kind of, uh, aligned with what I think is my moral compass, companies over my career that help people. Um, so I've been in manufacturing, I've been in, um, hospital setting, I've been in the insurance fintech space, um, where the end result is to help people.

And for me, that's an important thing. It may not be for everybody, um, but for me, I like to have what I do can make a difference in people's lives. And it's-- it varies. Working at a hospital, um, extremely rewarding in terms of, um, helping people and what you do literally saves lives on a daily basis. And for me, that was one of my favorite, uh, rotations, if you would, in that space.

Um, uh, so I think that's just coming up in the space, taking different jobs, taking opportunities, [00:34:00] uh, and I don't think I've taken any job where I already did that job and I felt like I was nailed it a hundred percent, if you would. Like, "Hey, I was this manager here, I'm gonna be this manager again, and I'm gonna be that manager again," to me, that wasn't a...

It wasn't what I wanted to do. Could I do it? Sure. But it felt kinda boring to do that again. Like, I wanted new challenges to keep me interested and continuing learning. And then I think as well, Ward, as, as we've seen, there's always somebody smarter in the room. And if not, go to a different room. Find a different room with people who are smarter than you and learn from them and be humble.

And if you can do those things I, the sky's the limit. I, I, I look at some of the people in my organizations, um, and I, I am super proud when I see where they started and where they're at now. And I've had people who have worked for me before now are CISOs, and people who were analysts before and now they're [00:35:00] running a team.

And in most cases, we're still able to sit down and have a chat and, uh, um, they remember how you treated them, not what you said in most cases, right? People do that. Um, I've had some great managers. I remember how I was treated and how that makes you feel. It's just what sticks in your memory more instead of what were the seven words that I said to Ward on August 12th of whatever year.

No idea. Um, so I think those are some traits and hopefully some tips that will help, um, some of your less experienced workers. And as they're working through the space, never be afraid to jump in both feet and, uh, go after it. It works for me.

Trips

work for them too

Ward: Great tips. And so education background, you thought you wanted to be a teacher. And I have had a few guests now, actually one, one guest is coming to mind that, you know, also same thing. So I'm curious for you, how [00:36:00] much do you find yourself using some of those skills that you might have learned in, in that education path?

Todd Covert: Yeah. It, it's, it's, um, it's kind of s- it's not surprising why I wanted to go into teaching, 'cause if you think about before you go to college, who do you see every day or almost every day is a teacher, an educator, right? In terms of you're in school, you're in school since you're probably five till the time you're a senior and graduate in the US, right?

And it varies by country.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so you've got a lot of exposure and you're like, "Oh, I wanna do something like that." Um, so I went down that path. Um, and like I said, it, it, it wasn't quite the right fit for toys and money and, um, and, and some of the other challenges that teachers have, and I have the utmost respect for teachers if you're out there, um, battling through it, especially as we're at the beginning of a new school year.

Um, all positive vibes and thoughts going your way.

Yep

Um, but for me, [00:37:00] um, I've leveraged that, some of those elements in from a coaching style. So as you look at leadership, and you can have mul- there are multiple styles of leadership I think about that coaching element in terms of, uh, similar to teaching, right?

If you're coming to me with a problem, I could tell you the solution. That's an easy. Or what I prefer to do is, "Ward, what would you do in this situation?" And it forces you to think through that, right? So same thing if you thought about your math teacher from high school, hopefully it's a positive thought, right?

"Hey, how do I solve this?" And they're like, "Well, what do you think," right? And it made you frustrated, I'm sure. Uh, I know it made me frustrated at times 'cause I wasn't going to them 'cause I had the answer. But it helped you think through that. So I think about that aspect as well as just the learning styles.

So one of those things for me is what are the learning styles for people? I'm a visual learner. If you gave me a 500-word pre-read document, that probably [00:38:00] wouldn't be the best thing by itself to get ready-- to get me ready for that conversation or as a pre-read for a meeting. Um, but I'm a visual learner.

Some people are visual, some people are audio, or audio, uh, having that audio component. So I think about that aspect as well from the teaching days. You know, just imagine you're back in that little tiny desk that's all cramped

Oh

and you've got those worksheets, right? Some of them had a picture, some of them had a,

Yup

know, enter, um, multiple choice questions, whatever it was.

So those are e- those are elements that I think about along with that communication style that we talked about earlier in the marketing. Like if you look at today, um, and I haven't, you know, used social media as a TikTok or whatever, Instagram, to try to convince my executives to buy into one of the programs, you know, that I'm trying to get across.

But you can definitely see how with some groups, the messaging has gone down to a five to 30-second punch, if [00:39:00] you would, to, to be able to draw in their audience. Um, and sort of that dopamine effect that, uh, that, uh, from a social media. So I do think about those elements in terms of style, communication, how do I work with that audience?

And for me, Ward, I always love the light bulb moment. Um, I love seeing that on people when they're like, "I got it." Like, "Here's a solution. Here's what I should do," and you can walk away. And I did have the opportunity when my kids were growing up to coach them. So for me it's kind of in that space, coaching, teaching, and then coaching in the workplace and that leadership style.

Now there's always times that you may need a direct style, right? Things breach. It, it may not be the great l- it may not be a great time for, "Ward, what do you think are the six steps we should take next in this situation?" It may be, "Ward, here are the six steps we're gonna do,"

Yep

depending on the scenario.

But in most cases, I found that coaching style [00:40:00] has the best overall impact in terms of development for my team members, um, in that space

Ward: I love it. I love it. Todd, you mentioned a few times, um, you know, coaching and mentoring. So, you know, under that vein, if folks wanna reach out and connect with you, what's the best way to do so?

Todd Covert: Yeah, you can find me on, uh, LinkedIn, um, Todd Covert. Now there's multiple Todd Coverts out on LinkedIn, um, but you can take a look and then,

Ward: sure to

I-

the right one in this

episode.

Todd Covert: the right one. Um, and it's funny because I've worked at, um, I think two companies now where there's been an- another Todd Covert, so that was confusing. Uh, I'm sure there's boards you probably haven't gone through, through that one.

Nope.

So lucky you. Um, but certainly, uh, reach out, um, and we'll put it in with the, with the materials, and you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. Happy to connect, uh, and be [00:41:00] able to sync up. And if you have more questions or questions, you know, in terms of development, I'm happy to, to try to help. I think it's important for me to give back just personally, 'cause I was so blessed, um, by so many good mentors, um, and some bad, uh, leaders along the way that I picked up some things that I do and some things from those bad leaders that I don't wanna do, and hopefully I've incorporated that into my style.

I think it's important that everybody, um, takes something away from your, your leaders, whether it's good or bad, but helps you build along the way

Ward: Totally agree. Well, Todd, thank you so much for finally sitting down and doing this episode with me

Todd Covert: I am excited, Ward, and, uh, I look forward hopefully to getting together in person sometime. Um, you know, and we'll have to find the next, uh, conference to, uh, to go out and en- and enjoy a beverage or two

Ward: Absolutely. Absolutely. And big thank you to the audience. Really hope you enjoyed [00:42:00] the episode and learned something today. Please tell others in your network to follow and listen. This has been another exciting episode of "Guardian to the Data." See you next time

Speaker: That's a wrap on another episode of Guardians of the Data. Thanks for tuning in for show notes and more Visit Guardians. The data do show Guardians of the data is made possible by support from Centro to see how we help organizations discover and classify all of their data accurately and automatically while quickly achieving scale data protection without the fuss, please visit sentra.io.

Catch you next time.